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STOLEN: Michael Jordan Fleer Playmakers 88/100 (story here)
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natsturner
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:57 pm    Post subject: STOLEN: Michael Jordan Fleer Playmakers 88/100 (story here) Reply with quote

Hey everyone.

I just posted the below to eBay in hope that anyone who may be offered this card for sale hear the story and does not buy the card, as it's a very serious matter. If any of you have any information on this, or know anything I don't, I'd love to hear about it here.

This isn't the first time a thread has been started related to Amy in Australia (who goes by a ton of eBay screen names).

-Nat

____

I am a major buyer of rare Michael Jordan cards. On March 17, 2011 I purchased a Michael Jordan Fleer Playmaker's Theater BGS 9 serial numbered 088/100 (here is a link to the original auction: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5337015507&customid=&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D320669217721%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3ACOSI%3AUS%3A1123%29. After successfully receiving the card after winning the auction (for $3,250), I scanned the card and posted it to my personal collection (link here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/natsturner/5557706922/in/set-72157626044376996). You can clearly see the serial #.

On June 16th, I mailed the card to Beckett Grading Services (BGS) in Dallas hoping to have the grade bumped up to a 9.5 via USPS. I also sent along two other cards, both high-end Lebron James cards (one is scanned here before I sent it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/natsturner/5499397079/in/set-72157623033373058). Beckett never received the cards.

About a month and a half later, my exact card which never arrived to BGS showed up on eBay for a conspicuously low BIN ($2,700) from a seller in Dallas (the same city that BGS is located in). The auction of course ended quickly, with better_cover_lover (who now goes by the_pirates_parrot). The seller was xedbats, whose name is Michael Becker (link to auction: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5337015507&customid=&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D130556784549%2B%26clk_rvr_id%3D252186460566%23ht_500wt_1413%29. I talked to Michael after locating his phone number, and he promised to hang onto the card and not sell it to better_cover_lover or anyone until we resolve things. His story at the time was that someone walked into his store in Dallas and offered him the card sight-unseen for $2,000 cash, which he paid, and then he posted the card on eBay not knowing it's true value but wanted to make a quick buck. As soon as I talked to Michael on the phone, I messaged better_cover_lover over eBay knowing that she (Amy) bought/won the auction, alerting her to the fact that Michael/xedbats was selling a card that was stolen from me, and therefore she should not pay for the item as she would be buying stolen property.

Unfortunately, Michael went dark soon after that and never returned any of my calls or emails. In the meantime, I flew to Dallas and met with the police and postal police, and started cases with both for the stolen property which presumably was stolen out of the mail. The theory being, someone recognized who the recipient was (BGS), knew that cards that were worth grading were contained inside, and kept the package.

Now, today, about 5 friends of mine who are big Jordan collectors have emailed me a scan of my card, with the same serial # (088/100), which has (as expected) been successfully bumped up to a 9.5 by BGS, which is being offered for sale by better_cover_lover / the_pirates_parrot. This person is Amy from Australia. In fairness to Amy, I have successfully purchased many cards from her on eBay and have had no problems, however that doesn't change the fact that she is currently in possession of my high-end stolen card which she bought from Michael Becker. It appears that she/better_cover_lover/Amy/the_pirates_parrot knowingly, after me having alerted her to the fact, bought the stolen card from Michael Becker in Dallas, got the card bumped by BGS, and is now offering it for sale.

I have attached two photos of the card, the first in BGS 9 form of when I owned it, and the second in BGS 9.5 form that Amy is currently offering for sale. I personally find it very unethical that she would go out of her way to buy this card KNOWING that it is stolen, and then go about selling it. That doesn't speak highly to her business practices, which many people have questioned in the past.

DO NOT BUY THIS CARD. It is stolen property, and will need to ultimately be returned to me. I am working with the authorities both in the US and Australia now to have the card recovered. If you buy this card, you are buying stolen property. I have received countless legal advice on the matter, which is unanimously centered that if you buy stolen property, and it's discovered as such, the rightful owner has the right to have the property returned without consideration (as it should be). Which is why it's important to obtain proof of ownership when you buy something high-end (such as a car, etc...). Worse, knowingly selling private property is an offense.

Please contact me at natsturner@gmail.com or 281-923-9417 if you have any more information. Thank you

-Nat
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ljandkg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U poor bugger....I hold very little hope for u knowing the history of 'Amy' or Ray or 'Ramy' - they are like the Bonnie and Clyde of the card seller industry but without any redeeming features....
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Gabriel Garcia Marquez
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious how often Beckett "never received the package"? I have no idea because I've never sent any cards there to be graded...I'm sure there are countless people who send cards and get them back just fine...just seems so shady that your package went missing when I can assume that 99% of the cards get there? Maybe I'm over/underestimating? Did the authorities mention anything about an investigation concerning the mail carrier that "lost" the package, because that could open the possibilty of mail fraud. It just seems to me that there is something missing concerning how this card was acquired and promptly sold off...

Regardless, man, good luck with everything...Sounds like you went on quite an adventure trying to dig info, and that you've bumped shoulders with several shady people along the way...Hope this whole thing gets resolved quickly with the card back in your possession...
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hychang5
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smh, horrible story. On a side note though, your number looks like a Houston number?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unreal story. Ray and Amy are pieces of scum. Why even attempt to buy the card after being told that they were stolen? That alone shows what kind of people they are.

Where is the 9.5 Playmakers Theatre being offered for sale? I couldnt find it on ebay.

Oh and I am never sending cards to BGS. Its way too fishy that so many cards either end up lost or damaged while on their way to BGS.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hychang5 wrote:
Smh, horrible story. On a side note though, your number looks like a Houston number?
says hes from NYC on his profile. not rare to see eople use out of state numbers

Good Luck, I hope Amy and Ray end up in Jail. its ridiculous how they keep up the shady practices.
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rudygayexquisite
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a big fan of her work, but it's appalling to read all these negative comments about Amy.

There is someone working at Beckett who is stealing cards and selling them to the shop down the street.


I remember not too long ago, Nismo purchased a Jordan/Kobe autograph that everyone knew was stolen property and not one single person had a negative comment to make about him. He ended up selling that card just recently for a huge profit.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll help you by posting this on BO & OCT
Good luck on retrieving your card!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry double post
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks rudygayexquisite for pointing another story that is related to "stolen good". It is a good one Smile

So....

Amy got a good steal in ebay.
You jumped in saying this was a stolen goods.
Should Amy really believe in this story? From reading your story, it doesn't sound like you had any police report at the time when this item was sold. If I got a good steal, and some random person just says "don't pay, you will get in trouble". I just have a hard time to go with it.

Also, what about the Lebron cards? It should be in the same package that was stolen.

Lastly, I really didn't know you can send a grade card to beckett for regrade.

Not that I don't believe in your story, but I just have too many questions. Anyway, Bondgirl has been brought up so many times related to bad side of the story.
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m1000
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@xavier

the thing is... he was not a random person to amy. he had previously purchased other cards from her, including other high end michael jordan cards. she definitely was aware that he was a jordan collector and STILL chose not to listen what he was saying.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm I crazy or was that lebron card reported missing a few months ago?

Isn't this the second time amy / ray / whatever alias, had an issue with a big MJ collector from NYC?
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xavieronly1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m1000 wrote:
@xavier

the thing is... he was not a random person to amy. he had previously purchased other cards from her, including other high end michael jordan cards. she definitely was aware that he was a jordan collector and STILL chose not to listen what he was saying.


Ok, not a random person, but a random email says that the card is stolen good. I'm not sure how convincing to make the buyer believes in it. As the buyer, I would just think you are jealous that I get the good steal from ebay, and want me to cancel my payment.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xavieronly1 wrote:
Thanks rudygayexquisite for pointing another story that is related to "stolen good". It is a good one Smile

So....

Amy got a good steal in ebay.
You jumped in saying this was a stolen goods.
Should Amy really believe in this story? From reading your story, it doesn't sound like you had any police report at the time when this item was sold. If I got a good steal, and some random person just says "don't pay, you will get in trouble". I just have a hard time to go with it.

Also, what about the Lebron cards? It should be in the same package that was stolen.

Lastly, I really didn't know you can send a grade card to beckett for regrade.

Not that I don't believe in your story, but I just have too many questions. Anyway, Bondgirl has been brought up so many times related to bad side of the story.


+1

Why would you send such high valued cards uninsured ? The key is whoever sold it to michael / xedbats - what's his story? Anything is possible, I imagine it's not easy to steal from USPS.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xavieronly1 wrote:
Thanks rudygayexquisite for pointing another story that is related to "stolen good". It is a good one Smile

So....

Amy got a good steal in ebay.
You jumped in saying this was a stolen goods.
Should Amy really believe in this story? From reading your story, it doesn't sound like you had any police report at the time when this item was sold. If I got a good steal, and some random person just says "don't pay, you will get in trouble". I just have a hard time to go with it.

Also, what about the Lebron cards? It should be in the same package that was stolen.

Lastly, I really didn't know you can send a grade card to beckett for regrade.

Not that I don't believe in your story, but I just have too many questions. Anyway, Bondgirl has been brought up so many times related to bad side of the story.




I always hear that people are going to send cards back to Beckett for a regrade, but I rarely hear of any where the grade improves.


Where is the link for the BGS 9.5 auction of Amy/Shamy?




Randy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have to wonder, why wasn't the transaction done offline if the seller and the buyer know each other? This whole thing smells of fish.........



Randy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
xavieronly1 wrote:
Thanks rudygayexquisite for pointing another story that is related to "stolen good". It is a good one Smile

So....

Amy got a good steal in ebay.
You jumped in saying this was a stolen goods.
Should Amy really believe in this story? From reading your story, it doesn't sound like you had any police report at the time when this item was sold. If I got a good steal, and some random person just says "don't pay, you will get in trouble". I just have a hard time to go with it.

Also, what about the Lebron cards? It should be in the same package that was stolen.

Lastly, I really didn't know you can send a grade card to beckett for regrade.

Not that I don't believe in your story, but I just have too many questions. Anyway, Bondgirl has been brought up so many times related to bad side of the story.




I always hear that people are going to send cards back to Beckett for a regrade, but I rarely hear of any where the grade improves.


Where is the link for the BGS 9.5 auction of Amy/Shamy?




Randy



Sorry, I wasn't clear with my point.

We know people send cards back to Beckett for a regrade. I just don't know anyone would send an actual GRADED card to Beckett without cracking the case first. It is like telling Beckett "you guys gave me BGS 9.0 and I don't like it. Give me 9.5 NOW!"
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like beckett doesn't keep record of the serial number - if a card numbered 88/100 was graded a 9 (and they know it) - why would they give away a 9.5 the second time around? ...it just shows their inconsistency (which makes the whole grading thing a moot point - why would you pay much more for the exact same card just because the label says 9.5 instead of 9?)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

engin33r wrote:
Sounds like beckett doesn't keep record of the serial number - if a card numbered 88/100 was graded a 9 (and they know it) - why would they give away a 9.5 the second time around? ...it just shows their inconsistency (which makes the whole grading thing a moot point - why would you pay much more for the exact same card just because the label says 9.5 instead of 9?)


Maybe because the person resubmitting it crack it out before sending it in. Beckett does not keep track of the serial # on cards. So when they receive a raw card, they treat it as a new order, with no knowledge of the cards previous grade.

Grading is subjective. As you can see that card was borderline gem mint. So the person took the risk and resubmitted it.


Last edited by bgstan on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jasondr91
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

engin33r wrote:
Sounds like beckett doesn't keep record of the serial number - if a card numbered 88/100 was graded a 9 (and they know it) - why would they give away a 9.5 the second time around? ...it just shows their inconsistency (which makes the whole grading thing a moot point - why would you pay much more for the exact same card just because the label says 9.5 instead of 9?)


They bump grades if you have ties to the company. This happens all the time. 8's become 9's and 9's magically become 9.5's. The whole grading market is a gigantic scam.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your collection is amazing !

Nice vintage cards, some tough NFL cards, great 90s of Kobe and terrific Jordans. Seems to be one of the best collections ever put together. I think you are on a path towards history in the making.

Good luck on the Playmakers Theatre !
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow guys, cards are under graded all the time. The owner, Nat, obviously thought it should be a 9.5, as it is now, and sent it back in. Doesn't mean someone has inside with the company. Do you really think BGS purposely gives out 9.5's to 8 worthy cards? Come on. They would have no company. Are there guys who gets more bumps than others? Yes. Why does this happen? Because they submit thousands of cards. They don't get automatic bumps, trust me, but since they are submitting much more than the common submitter they naturally have a higher % chance at getting more bumps. People really need to get off of BGS.
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coolz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhkid23 wrote:
Wow guys, cards are under graded all the time. The owner, Nat, obviously thought it should be a 9.5, as it is now, and sent it back in. Doesn't mean someone has inside with the company. Do you really think BGS purposely gives out 9.5's to 8 worthy cards? Come on. They would have no company. Are there guys who gets more bumps than others? Yes. Why does this happen? Because they submit thousands of cards. They don't get automatic bumps, trust me, but since they are submitting much more than the common submitter they naturally have a higher % chance at getting more bumps. People really need to get off of BGS.


So you're saying that Beckett DOES NOT favor any customer?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by dhkid23 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graded card review:
http://www.beckett.com/estore/helpsys/viewarticle.aspx?ArticleId=321

At first look, looks like thats for cards previously graded by other grading services, but not by BGS.
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